(A dialogue from Facebook)
Gary, I appreciate your comments, but (there is the but) you didn’t deal with the theme of the post. Like Lily said, the words are being repeated because people are not dealing with the substance of the matter. No one disagrees that it is God alone who changes the heart. We all believe that. But, there are rules for God’s people as God works in the lives of people. God does His job as we follow His instructions.
You said; “Should we not also aspire to be long suffering? I agree there must be a point where we cut off those who reject the truth”.
Gary, at what point should we “cut off” those who reject the truth? Can you give me one passage that instructs us to tolerate a heretic up until a certain point? On the contrary, we are told when to cut them off.
Romans 16:17; Now I urge you, brethren, keep your eye on those who cause dissensions and hindrances contrary to the teaching which you learned, and turn away from them.
I know you have the ability to look up the words in the Greek. So,I ask you;
what exactly does it mean when Paul said “mark them”? Mark who? Mark those who bring to us “contrary doctrine”.
The Arminian tells us we have a freewill to choose Him at any point. We have the ability
God says “no you don’t have that ability-it is not by human will, choice or desire”.
The Arminian says we are only partially dead.
God says we are dead dead and dead.
The Arminian says we can reject God’s will and therefore, reject God’s call to salvation.
God says His will cannot be thwarted. He has a people set apart for salvation who WILL come to Him on His terms by His gospel.
The world does not like this right? Do you think it not a coincidence that Arminians do not like this either? Is the Arminian attacking us or are they attacking God’s word on the matter? I think, we think the attack is against us so we tend to sympathize with them and we must not.
I also think a major problem not understood in this matter of heresy is the issue of the will. You said”
“So I say that to each of you, concerning those who hate us we should aspire to be like God. And remember God does according to his will. Nevertheless not my will, but Thine be done.”
What I hope for you to see is this is not careless ignorance with the majority of Arminians. It is a willful refusal to accept what God says about inability. The Arminian is not seeking God’s position on the matter. They are seeking to put their position into God’s word. It is the opposite of “thy will be done”.
To say it like one commentator; “Heresy is a division resulting from individual self-will; the individual doing and teaching what he chose, independent of the teaching and practice of the Church”.
We are to have the same mind as Paul when it came to heresy. Give me one example where Paul was tolerant. Not of moral failure, but of doctrinal deviation.
Each one of the above examples maintained by the Arminian is contrary to what the Scriptures teach. Returning to your point, how much heresy do we tolerate? At what point do we mark them out? What does it mean when it says “avoid them”?
Vine say; Turn aside. Not only keep out of their way, but remove from it if you fall in with them”.
Thayer says;
1) to turn aside, deviate (from the right way and course)
2) to turn (one’s self) away, to turn away from, keep aloof from one’s society
3) to shun one
What does “turn away” from them mean when it is to be applied to the life of the believer?
I have given the same Scriptures over and over and many seem to disregard clear instructions. Is it because we live in an age that we can be more tolerant with heretics? Do we know better than Paul? Do you also give heretics the right hand of fellowship? We would be quick to say “I would never dine out with the Devil” but, we would dine out with a person who advances the Devil’s doctrines.
Paul continued to instruct us on our affairs with heretics. Anyone who met up with a person who taught contrary doctrine was to follow the instructions from Paul. Paul said if another does not obey the instructions given in his letter, we are not to associate with them. This next passage is a parallel to Romans 16.
2Thessalonians 3:14; If anyone does not obey our instruction in this letter, take special note of that person and do not associate with him, so that he will be put to shame”.
Romans 16-Mark them-Shun them
2 Thessalonians-Take special note of them- do not associate with them
This is an issue of intolerance that we are commanded to practice. This is an issue of remaining loyal to our God. This is an issue that is not popular in today’s culture because we have accepted Arminianism for such a very long time. I am sorry to say that they do not win by default due to longevity.
I did not write my post because I had time to kill. I wrote the post in order for us to see the reality of accepting someone who flatly rejects any doctrine that has been revealed to us via God’s word and then proceeds to teach others the same error.
It was my point to bring that out. Bring what out? I am not talking about ignorant Arminians. I am talking about a person who believes heresy and promotes heresy. If an Arminian runs around telling others (as gospel truth) “you must use your freewill to choose God” then they have denied the words of the Messiah- “NO ONE can come to me unless the Father drags them” No ONE can come to me unless it is granted by the Father.
If a person, no matter who they are or what man they follow, says we have the ability to come to God on our own steam, they have taken a contrary position to what the Messiah said in John 6.
John 6:44; “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him to life on the last day”
John 6:65; So he said, “That’s why I told you that no one can come to me unless it be granted him by the Father.”
This has NOTHING to do with a lack of grace, tolerance, love, etc as many insinuate. That kind of argumentation is putting feelings into the matter. Our feelings are not to be trusted.
Generally, when we argue on behalf of Arminians it is because we have “friends” who hold to those heretical doctrines and so, we allow our personal feelings to be a factor. We do not want to take a harsh stance with our “friends” and so we argue on their behalf instead of follow the commands of Scripture. We allow them to remain at a congregation that meets “their” ideas of God and how they think He should do things.
In general, Arminians attend a place that tells them what they already believe. From childhood we are taught that we have freewill. Many attend a place in order to see their needs met socially or their kids needs met. We were told about this in advance.
2 Timothy 4:3-4; For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires, and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths.
The point is we do not call ourselves Christian and at the same time attend a place that feeds us garbage so that we can in turn spread the garbage to others in the name of Christianity. Arminians find teachers that tell them what they want to hear. If they were one of God’s people they would want truth no matter where it took them or where it would take them away from.
That is not Christian!!!!!!!! Would the children of Israel take their kids over to the Philistine camp because they had “family night”? Would it glorify God to see a Jewish parent expose the children to false doctrine? What about inside the Arminian congregations? Does it glorify God when parents expose their children to Arminian doctrine? These same children grow up later to fight against those of us who maintain the sovereignty of God.
I keep hearing your arguments, but you never give one passage that says we are to deal tolerantly with a heretic.
Arminianism is heresy. What do we do with those claiming to be Christian, who at the same time advances false doctrine? Arminian congregations are machines that spread tares among the wheat. The Arminian followers in turn spread the lies that speak against the plan of salvation God has designed for His glory.
Again, Paul has spoken on the matter of heresy;
Titus 3:10-11; Have nothing to do with a person who causes divisions after you have warned him once or twice. For you know that a person like this is corrupt and keeps on sinning, being self-condemned.
Take note that the person being warned is said to be corrupt and keeps on sinning. Take note that after two warnings we are commanded to have NOTHING to do with them. These are people causing divisions in our midst because they are self willed.
The NASV calls the person “factious” This is the word for heretic.
The Greek word aihretikos is defined by Thayer as schismatic, factious, a follower of a false doctrine.
It is related to the word aihretizō. This is why I say the Arminian is self willed. The word means “to choose”.
Strong says “From a derivative of G138; to make a choice: – choose.
To hold to false doctrine is a willful choice to disagree with God. One can never be like-minded if one is pursuing their own choices of doctrine.
It is a self-seeking decision to pursue an alternate doctrine. That means heresy is a prideful act where man tries to get his/her own way.
To tell others we can come to God by our own freewill because we are not totally dead is to contradict Scripture; is to lie to another about our spiritual state and it is adding to the word of God.
I have said it before and I will say it again. If a person says they are an ambassador for the Lord and misrepresents Him, how on earth can we say “it’s ok, they are just immature in the faith”. That is essentially what it sounds like to me.
If they can be proved a liar by their doctrine then they are not speaking for the Lord. The Lord takes the lies of Arminians to expose people who are not His. Consider again the Proverb;
Proverbs 30:5-6; Every word of God is tested; He is a shield to those who take refuge in Him. Do not add to His words Or He will reprove you, and you will be proved a liar.
I’ll say it again. If a person adds to His word, that person will be proved to be a liar.
For some reason we have this tender spot for Arminians because??? God does not have a tender spot for heretics. Therefore, God’s people MUST NOT have a soft spot for false doctrine.
This is not an opportunity to be divisive in any way, shape or form. God has set standards and if one reads the Old Testament then he or she cannot help but see God is sovereign and that He intervenes in the lives of the people He chooses. I have said it before and I will say it again. God is not running a club where men and women can walk in at any time and leave at any time.
We are called the set apart ones for a reason. If we mingle with Arminians then what exactly are we set apart from? Do we allow the world to think we are forgiving of men’s heresies? Or do we show the world that we are set apart from the enemies of God? We do not mingle with those who twist Scripture to meet their needs. We reprove and we rebuke and correct with Scripture. If they will not listen then we have done our part and we now shun them. We now avoid them.
We leave them to God and His judgment for refusing sound doctrine.
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